In this 32 minute interview, WPF’s Bridget Conley interviews Armand Coleman, Executive Director of the Transformational Prison Project (TPP). TPP’s mandate is “to provide spaces where those who have been harmed and those who have done the harming can come together and engage in dialogue—to build understanding and empathy toward those who have been victims of violent crime. TPP is committed to understanding individual harms and the systemic harms that affect communities, more specifically communities of color.” Coleman addresses how he came to restorative justice when inside prison and why it is such a powerful tool for practicing accountability.
Transcript
Bridget
This is Bridget Conley, Research Director with the World Peace Foundation. And I’m speaking today with Armand Coleman, who is the executive director of the Transformational Prison Project. I’ve had the great pleasure of working with Armand on some projects and wanted to bring his voice over to World Peace Foundation’s blog to share with our audience. So, Armand, thank you for agreeing to speak with me today.
Armand
Yes, thank you for the invitation.
Bridget
So we’ll get to what TPP, what the organization is and what the organization does. But at the heart of everything you do is restorative justice. And so I wanted to begin by asking you when and how did you first encounter restorative justice practices?
Armand
Great question. Well, I first encountered restorative justice practices in 2013. After being incarcerated for 21 years, I was transferred to MCI Norfolk. And at MCI Norfork, I encountered, like, letme say, a presence of a lot of men that I respected, who were already involved in restorative justice. And we have something called they had something there that they had established called the restorative justice group. And the restorative justice group was founded basically for the purpose of bringing healing to the incarcerated men, and helping them find a better way to communicate besides violence. So when I went there, my cousin, who was also my co-defendant, in the crime that I committed, he was actually the lead of that space. He immediately got me evolve, and invited me into doing the work.
Bridget
Yes, so one thing that you said it, I think that not everyone will understand is the connection between people who are incarcerated, especially those who have perpetrated crimes, not everyone who ends up in prison has, but the connection between addressing the harms that they’ve experienced and coming to terms with the harms that they’ve caused. So can you explain a little bit about how restorative justice works inside prison?
Armand
Yes, so the restorative justice group, how it was started — it was kind of like a program for us, by us. And it kind of like speaks to what you were just saying about the importance of relationships. The way I looked at it was that when I when I started getting involved with restorative justice, I did a lot of harm, my harm didn’t stop at the prison door, I kind of was considered like one of the most incorrigible ones in the state of Massachusetts, having spent 28 years in prison, over a decade in solitary confinement. I had a reputation that was beyond repute to the men incarcerated, right? So it came a time when I went from being a follower to having a following. But I still didn’t know how to use my voice and my influence, to actually help people move in a positive and a positive and healing direction. So when I went to MCI Norfolk, the way the programming looked like is that we created programming for ourselves based upon our own experiences. And we led the programming ourselves. We also had an extra component that came in and assisted us, a volunteer body, if you will, right? So the first group that we started with something called a reading group. It’s an eight week reading group. So you had an eight week reading group and an eight week reading group, we would explore things like the humanization of loss, disruption of community, rage, and a couple other topics, all based upon the book Teens Who Hurt. So we actually extracted four different chapters from that book, we would read them every week, and then we’ll come back and we’ll discuss it in a restorative space. Everybody had to relate those chapters to their own reality. So we had a process that we do, where every group, we start with grounding, then we start doing go into what’s called the check in, and then we do our circle rounds or question round to do well, and then we do a checkout and a closing. So that was basically the format we use for every single group that we had.
Bridget
And for you, what’s the connection between dealing with traumas that you experienced as a young person or because if I recall correctly, you committed the crime that you were sentenced to prison for when you were was 18? Or how old? 17 — 17. Right. So really a teen, like just a kid still, especially considering what we know. So how does dealing with trauma in your past — how does that relate to coming to terms with crime that you caused? Like, what’s the connection that like, why is that so important?
Armand
Yes. So that I think is very important, and has a lot to do with guilt, has a lot to do with shame. has a lot to do with basically forgiving oneself, right? Just take me for instance, I was 17 years old when I committed my crime. After 20-plus years of incarceration, I will deluded to believe that I was one of the greatest gangsters ever and that I would actually capitalize upon that upon release, by having allegiance from a legion of people, who actually admired the work that put in, in a destructive way, right? However, once I entered into the restorative justice space, I realized everything that I was doing, all my acts that I committed, were literally me playing out childhood crimes that happened against me. I realized that hundreds of crimes were committed against me before I ever committed one crime. And everything that I was doing was literally, me living our traumas in a destructive way. Basically, a hurt person, hurting other people. So I actually realized early on in the restorative process, that the crime that I committed was the exact recreation of a crime that committed was committed against me as a child. I was hit in the back of the head by my uncle for snitching on him to my grandfather. And my crime was the exact same crime with fatal results. Why hit somebody in the back of the head with a bullet with fatal results, for snitching. Right, so once I realized that, I realized, wow, I’m not even in control of my own reality. So I want to control my own reality. And I will learn through that process that if I continue to process it, eventually I’ll be able to I have control of my own reality be not to be controlled by my traumas. So so that was something that was like very, very attractive to me.
Bridget
Yeah. And you were, I think, five years old as a child, when you were you were hospitalized for being hit in the back of the head, right? I mean, it wasn’t minor —
Armand
Yeah, but even even even if so is it the instance of getting hit in the back of the brick is bad enough, right? Getting stitches, getting him admitted to the hospital is bad enough. But for me, I don’t even remember the pain of the brick, right. But what I do remember the pain of is when my mother came to the hospital. And she asked me like, what happened. And I explained to her what happened. And her response was something like, that’s why you don’t tattle. So like, I don’t remember the pain of the brick. But I remember like, her saying that to me, I couldn’t get past that. Like, it did something for me as a child. It was kind of like my mother was given sanction that if something like this happens, somebody tells, it’s okay to hit them. Even in the back of the head, I mean, it’s okay. And the reality is that — and that’s why I love restorative justice so much — that I forgot about that. I have repressed that memory. I didn’t even remember it happened until I was actually processing my crime. And we have a philosophy that we want to find out what is the thing that led to the thing that led to the next thing. So we believe that hurt people hurt people. So if somebody does a crime, especially if it rises to the level of homicide, there had to be something that happened to them in their past that fueled that crime, right? And when I told my crime — it was called the crime impact statement. That was a question. Somebody actually was like, Why did you take such an extreme stance? And when was the first time you ever heard just do this? Don’t even answer now, just take us back with you and think about when the first time you ever heard that snitching was wrong. And I was like, in my mind, like, why would you ask me that question? Everybody knows snitching is wrong. Right? And then I went back to my cell and I thought about it. And I was like, I just couldn’t believe it. I was like, Wow, it really went back to like, my, that childhood when I got hit in the head with a brck and I forgot about it. I forgot about it, had repressed it. And then it came back. So it was it was a surreal experience. Right? Very surreal.
Bridget
Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredible mirror between what you experienced as a really young child and then what you ended doing as an older child, a 17 year old. I guess one of the things you know, the way you talk about ‘what was the thing that led to the thing that led to the thing’ is understanding that accounting for what led to the thing that led to the thing doesn’t mean not taking responsibility for the crime, but it’s actually the first step towards being able to be accountable. And so I guess if you could say, like, … A lot of people think that the criminal justice system is what brings accountability. And so in your experience, from what you’ve said, and what I understand that it wasn’t a trial, it wasn’t a plea agreement. None of that really produced accountability. It was this other process. So can you talk about why that’s how you experienced the criminal justice system and the limits of accountability there?
Armand
Of course, and my case is unique, right? So that so I’ll just say like, as I was incarcerated at the age of 17, Not only was I incarcerated for homicide, I was a youngest member of a 52 man, indictment, man and woman indictment. I was the youngest member of that gang. I was indicted at 17 for crimes that allegedly occurred when I was 16, and 15, and even 14. However, because I was only 17, and I was only 14 to 17, when these crimes allegedly occurred, the federal government said they weren’t going to prosecute me because they don’t they didn’t prosecute minors that time. So what happened was the state in conjunction with the federal government, because remember, I had a state charge as well for homicide and the state will prosecute 17 year olds, they don’t care. They didn’t care at the time, and it’s still okay, right. The state along the federal government fabricated a case against me. Now, I’m guilty, I take full responsibility and accountability for what I do right now. I spoken up on an over 1000 times. However, what the state did in conjunction with the federal government was create a story and a narrative that didn’t, that wasn’t real. They created over eight witnesses saying literally putting a gun in my hand, taking a gun out of my hand, being a part of a planning, literally, none of this was true. Right? None of that was true except for the fact that I did commit the crime, right? Nothing they said was actually true. Um, so the reason I mentioned that is because I lived with that for 20 plus years, right? And I’m like, even though I’ve committed a crime, and I own responsibility,at that time, I didn’t own responsibility. It was hard for me to take accountability, when so many bad actions happened by people who were supposed to be like, good actors, right? Acting on our behalf. And I remember one time, I was in a circle space, like, literally the first month that I was doing the circle. And I mentioned that I had mentioned like, Yo, man, I mean, I don’t want to sound like this, but this is what actually what happened in my crime. Right. And I’m like, listen to what you think, man ,happened didn’t happen. Because what the papers say, what the court documents say, what the state says, what the federal government say, what the parole says, the official version is wrong. So they were like, No, say what happened then. And it just so happened that one day that was a guy in a space wwho was a federal prosecutor. And I spoke to what happened. And he said, Wow, he said, Remember that case. I remember he said, I remember the situation. He said I wasn’t the one who prosecuted you, but I remember that. And he said there was a lot of stuff going on back then it shouldn’t have went on. I admit that, as a prosecutor. And he was like, you know what, I apologize to you for what happened. Even though I didn’t do that. I apologize to you. That blew my mind. That literally blew my mind. I feel like it opened the doors for me to take accountability, because somebody finally acknowledged what happened to me. What happened to me and even though it wasn’t him, I felt like he was literally the person issued the apology. He was like, I was in the office at the time. I wasn’t on the case. But I remember it, and that shouldn’t have happened to nobody. We were wrong for that. And like he gave us a sincere heartfelt Wow. And I never I’ve never forgotten that. Never forgotten that. The reason I mentioned that is because that allowed me to open the door to my own accountability, like I never did before.
Bridget
Yeah. And I think something like 97% of cases are settled through plea bargains, which are really trading you know, the harshest possible charges against you know, another version and traded down and It’s not really a fact finding endeavor.
Armand
And it’s not. Like I said, it’s not done fairly. Literally the crime that I committed, like I said, I can make the crime, but they literally had no evidence against me, the only evidence they had was evidence they fabricated, and that evidence was used to leverage that. In those instances, they use false evidence to leverage a plea bargain. So make it like, Yo, we know what I’m gonna take this plea bargain, because I don’t want to risk it. I don’t want to risk on a trial, right? I know, people. I know somebody who’s innocent. And he took a plea bargain, because they had false leverage against them. And I know for a fact he was innocent, right? So I was like, but he just took like, yo, listen, I don’t want to take the risk of going to prison for the rest of my life. So let me just take this 15 years, and that’s sad.
Bridget
Can I ask you since we’re talking about accountability and the way the system functions… Obviously talking about it this week. One can’t help but think of what happened to Tyre Nichols. And, you know, had it not been for cameras and activists who refused to let the issue go, the official version of the story might still be on the books, the one that’s a fabrication. One of the challenges, at least I imagine for someone who also knows that prison doesn’t necessarily do the things society wants it to do. When we’re faced with an example, like Tyre Nichols, where a lot of people are saying accountability will mean that these police officers get the harshest possible sentence. And I’m just curious for you, like what, when you look at that situation, where do you think accountability lies?
Armand
I think first and foremost, like the family, right? So every space ever been in I’ve had the pleasure of like being in a space of over two dozen, survivors who’ve lost their family members to crime, right. And, and for the majority of them, the perpetrators have been sentenced to life in prison. But none of them have ever got full — they didn’t feel they got accountability. They didn’t feel they got any healing from it. And they didn’t feel satisfied with the results. Um, so I think in a situation like that, it needs to be a discussion. And I would just say, let me just back up. Cuz a lot of people believe that restorative justice is like soft, right? I will tell you right now, the hardest thing I’ve been I’ve been in prison 28 years, I’ve been in Rikers Island. I’ve been in …I’ve been like, some of the harshest environments that prison has, the hardest thing I’ve ever did, was going to the restorative justice space. The only time I was ever scared actually, was when I went into that space. And that’s the reason I actually went full force. I prided myself on being courageous and not being afraid. But I was scared. And that’s why literally, like, Jedi-mind tricked myself and going into those spaces. And actually, until I wasn’t afraid no more to be in those spaces, right? Until I actualy found refuge in all spaces. So I kind of believe that, um, that that process can work on any given crime. Right. And I wouldn’t, I would not dismiss it.
Bridget
Yeah. Um, I’d like to switch gears if possible, and talk about the work you’re doing now. So tell me what is Transformational Prison Project? What are you guys doing?
Armand
Yeah, so the Transformational Prison Project was a program that began in the prison system. Like I said earlier, we’re no longer in the prison system, like we want to be. Most of our work is outward facing into society. But we are in a unique position where a lot of the women and men who did our programming inside of prison are now home. So we are able to create pathways of programming, pathways of employment, and even community for them on the other side of the wall. So that’s the primary things that we actually are doing. We are actually in the Department of Youth Services, we work with the youth. And the goal is for us to be at every inlet of the queer to pipeline system. So our goal is to be in DYS, DCF, schools, even in the county jails. Right? So that’s where we actually do a lot of our work. We’re working in the county prisons, working in DYS, and also working in the community with some of the youth, and working with people who are returning to society.
Bridget
And how is it different on the outside doing this work? Have your goals changed at all? Or is it just your capacity to control your circumstances more.
Armand
Yeah, I think the goal that changed more because… one thing that has been happening lately is that a lot of people who are lifers, Massachusetts has made some efforts to decarcerate. And people who you thought would never be coming home and are now coming home. Fortunately, we were fortunate in the way that when we were inside that we prioritized lifers in our programming over everybody else, right? Lifers is our main priority. People who committed the most deplorable harms were the ones that we actually bought in our space first and foremost. Including all of our co founders were all people who serve time for loss of life crimes. But now we’re in an era where, where decarceration is like a real issue, and Massachusetts has done some level of decarceration [indecipherable] which is basically the same thing we did in there, we’re helping them build the community out here, and help them move forward. So myself and the three core directors of our organization, are all people who served time, right. And we all have been able to successfully reenter society. So we’d like to replicate our, our pathways by showing people who are coming out who did more time than us or comparable time as us — how to navgiate reentry.
Bridget
Yeah. And I’ve also heard you talk about restorative justice as, as a mental health program. Really? How does it answer that need?
Armand
Yeah, that’s, that’s important as well. So we have the opportunity this last year to pilot a program called the Center for Wellness and Restoration. And what that was doing was to get a restorative justice-based clinical department that can help us focus on reentry. For instance, I don’t know if I told you this story, but when I first came home, I wasn’t like most lifers are mandated to do mental health. And I was doing a mental health for a while with a certain clinician while trying to work on getting TPP — the Transformational Prison Project –operable. Right? And I remember less than less than a year into my treatment with her, she did an exercise with me and said, do you plan on living in Boston? I said, Yes. She said, you know, rent, how much the rent is gonna costs? And I told her. She asked me how much do you think your car’s gonna cost? How would you think A, B, C, and D are going to caost. She went through a list. And at the time, I only had a part time job. But I was still working to get this up and going. And her thing was like, You need to get serious about life. You need to get a job. We already had a job lined up for you. Your case manager had a new job lined up for you in a casino, they also have a new job in construction. You passed both of those along, because you want to follow this. I mean, sometimes you are going to have to get serious. I was like wow. But for me, it wasn’t discouraging. It was actually, it was encouraging. Because I realized, like, wow, I remember like, I’m not the first founder of the Transformational Prison Project to come home. I think I’m a third right? of the co-founders. And I always wondered, like, why didn’t they follow up on the work. And then I met one of the co-founders one day, and he was like, I didn’t follow up because I had to make a life. He literally said the exact same line that she said to him. I wonder if they said the exact same thing to him that they said to me? I was like, wow, so I realized that I had to build something better for us. Right? So they understand what we’re going through understand what restorative justice actually means to people. So that’s where we actually got the Wellness and Resotration Center idea from, that was the vision.
Bridget
Yeah, it takes a lot though to build an organization from the ground up. So congratulations to you and the fellow co-founders. I mean, you guys are doing something really extraordinary. I’ve heard some of them talk about the work too, that they do. It’s really emotionally taxing work, or at least it seems like it up from the outside. And yes, I think it takes great courage to continue to do that work. I also I’m almost done. But I wanted to ask you one more question. On TPPs website. You also talk about dismantling toxic masculinity. And one of the things I think I’ve been really impressed with with TPP is the way that you’ve addressed sort of holistically like you’ve worked with the LGBTQI community, you work with women, you work with kids, black kids Hispanic, right? You work with a really large cross section of society that’s impacted by incarceration. But I wonder if you could just say specifically like to you, what is toxic masculinity, and why is it a problem in this work of restorative justice?
Armand
So toxic masculinity is something that fuels my crime, right? as well. So you put trauma and add toxic masculinity to it, it becomes a deadly, deadly like situation. And one thing I learned while I was incarcerated was that I wasn’t the only one that was dealing with that. It took me like I said, eight years of intensive restorative justice program, because I needed to process everything I was dealing with. I was fortunate to have circles every day, sometimes two times a day, and always able to sit with what I had, to processes what I had, so those things couldn’t control me. But the last thing I ever processed was my sexual assault and rape as a child. Right. So I think when you add that trauma to the toxic masculinity, I was in a position where… I was in a position like 26 years into my sentence, where everybody believed I was going home. I believed I was going home, I know I was going home. The tea leaves everybody was reading the leaves, it was written, right. But I never processed what happened to me, right. And I was sitting in a space one day. And I remember I was sitting with a bunch of guys who are leaders, these guys are leaders, these are the guys I look up to. And I remember we was talking about, they were talking about basically, like, survival in prison like, and how we have changed. We went around a circle, like five guys said, remember these are the guy that I respected. Thwy were like, yo, if somebody called me a bitch, or somebody… I can’t take it. I’m like, wow, like literally, I was like there’s something behind this. Like, Why anything to do with the feminine to them, they felt like they could not take it. And I realized like, wow, either they had the same sexual trauma that I had as a child, or they were so governed by the toxic masculinity, that it wouldn’t allow them to navigate. But for me, really what really caught me like changing my positioning was that when I was on my way home, my life was such that in 2020…in 2016 or 2017, I think it was, I was preparing to go to parole. And I was in a position of leadership in different programs and institutions. And I realized, wow, all the people that have supported me, in the restorative justice programming are women. My external, external team were all woman, I was in something called a correctional recovery Academy and my counselor, who now works for us at TPP, she was a woman. I had an attorney, she was a woman. I had as a mental health, forensic mental health person, she was the woman. I had a social worker. And I was like, wow, I realized that my toxic masculinity was a barrier to me getting all that I need to get from these people, I literally was able to either see them as sex objects, as less than, as…and I was like, wow. I literally recognized that as a roadblock to helping me get to help me get and build …. And I was like, wow. And I literally made a conscious effort to stop. Just to undo all that. Right. It was, it wasn’t easy. But it is, as you know, you’ve been in our spaces like now we able to like live in live in harmony and prosperity with women just like any one of us. Right. So like before I do that? It would be would be it would be difficult for me to do that.
Bridget
Thank you. And I’m sorry, I actually didn’t. I mean, I don’t know you that well. But I didn’t know about the assault that you suffered, the sexual assault you suffered as a child too. I just I didn’t want to let that pass without recognizing it.
Armand
Thank you. I mean, um, so it was a time in my life. I didn’t believe that trauma was real. I didn’t believe that. I thought that was something that white people made up. I really believe that I’m not trying to be crass. But literally Ibeloieved that it was some psychobabble that can be made up. I really didn’t believe it. I like traumatized then I was at a group one day, a restorative justice group, somebody gave me a risk factors checklist. It would basically get to spend the ACES, right? adverse childhood experiences. And it was like 27 but it was all the same, but it was like expanded. And I remember, I was in the space and it was like check the ones that apply to you. And I checked every one excepot fop rhaving a parent die or being sexually assaulted or raped as a child. And I didn’t check that because I didn’t have the courage to check it. And then I finally realized, wait a minute, wow. Why? Why can’t I… you know it’s funny that I’m talking like this, because I couldn’t even say these words five years ago, the way I’m saying to you right now, I couldn’t even say, I tried to say the words, the words are stuck in my throat. I’m not, I don’t mean like, figuratively, I literally got stuck, and couldn’t even …Wow. And I knew that if I didn’t, I knew if I left prison, and I didn’t like process that restoratively it would still have power over me when I got out here. And it could cause me to get in some trouble. See what I’m saying? So when I’m sitting in that room, and these guys that I look up to it, I respect saying, if somebody called me this, or girl or I’ll do …literally they’re saying they’d throw their life away. They’re saying — and these are Lifers that have a chance to go home, but they’re saying they will give their life away if that — and, wow. I’m like I don’t want to do that.I’m lookimg at it differently and I realized I had the same conditions as they did. I was like, yo, I gotta process that because it has too much power over me too much.
Bridget
Yeah, you wanted all of that out?
Armand
Yes, I needed all of that out of me.
Bridget
Those are all the formal questions that I wanted to ask you.
Armand
Do you have any informal questions?
Bridget
Informal quesitons?
Armand
You got all the formal ones out…any ones not on the form?
Bridget
No, actually, not all of those were on the form. I mean, you can tell you’ve worked through all these issues. I mean, it’s it’s hard to be that honest. This is one of the things that amazed me about you and your colleagues at TPP is no there’s a measure of living every day with accountability that you don’t often see anywher. So it’s you all found extraordinary work on yourselves and now with others.
Armand
Now we have you on a team helping us, so thank you. You’ve been a bit of a bright, a bright light for us. I really appreciate you.
Bridget
Thank you.
